Comments on: Non-Issue

By: Timothy Burke

Timothy Burke — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 01:07:26 +0000

Sexual feelings, it seems to me, may not be ruled by will but neither are they invulnerable or immaterial to conscious intent. The idea that we are helpless before our feelings and desires is an assertion that a child molester could make as easily as a man who can’t feel desire for his wife after witnessing birth. Anybody could: “I can’t help it, it’s the way that I feel”. I think most of us scorn that statement when it leads to some action that we clearly view as immoral. We do feel at that moment that you can and should govern your feelings, control them, and indeed, feel differently than we do. (Or seek therapeutic help to assist in feeling differently). I can’t see how anyone could maintain, as a blanket statement, that people are as they are, and feel as they feel, and that is the way that it is and must ever be. There are circumstances under which none of us accept that. So this discussion about this particular case has to be about this particular case. We’re not privy to what any given individual’s feelings about witnessing childbirth might be, and as I said, if some particular individual is struggling with his feelings, ok. But the notion that there ought to be a social recognition of a likelihood or possibility of that kind of feeling in men generally, and advice to women to not potentially “endanger” their sex life for this moment of togetherness, seems profoundly wrong to me. As a general proposition, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to ask men to master or grapple with their feelings in this case, in part because people can do so. You do have some degree of conscious input into your desires; you can rule, or rethink, desires that lead to actions which are hurtful, immoral, or which break a kind of contract or partnership with a spouse or partner. People do all the time. It’s part of being a man to do so, in my opinion.

By: marty wiener

marty wiener — Wed, 31 Aug 2005 21:27:09 +0000

I frankly dont understand your view on this (it actually seems remarkably “Victorian”). Surely, sexual feelings are not subject to deliberate will. Just telling someone to “get over it” about something that seriously takes away his sexual interest in his wife is like contemptuously telling someone who is afraid of heights to get over it, they have no business being afraid of heights.

One must deal with people as they are, not as one thinks they should be. It seems perfectly reasonable for a woman to ask herself if she wants to endanger a nice marital sex life for this moment of togetherness.

By: Russell Arben Fox

Russell Arben Fox — Wed, 24 Aug 2005 15:15:46 +0000

“But given that social norms are the way they are, you would be making a statement that you really don’t want to be making if you didn’t show up.”

Well put, Joe. These norms aren’t universal, of course, not even across our own society and social strata. (In the thread at John and Belle’s, a midwife talked about orthodox Jewish men who withdraw just before the birth, when their wife is presumably most vulnerable, as a sign of respect.) But they are broadly accepted enough, and supportable enough, to make it, not mandatory that they be adhered to, but somewhat perverse to insist that adherence to the norm is at fault for a social problem.

By: joe o

joe o — Wed, 24 Aug 2005 05:16:40 +0000

I agree 100%. The good thing about being at childbirth is that your wife really wants you to be there. It is nice to be able to help that way. And it is nice to see the baby.

It wouldn’t be that big a deal if social norms were different. But given that social norms are the way they are, you would be making a statement that you really don’t want to be making if you didn’t show up.