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	<title>Comments on: Choose Your Own Adventure</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2005/09/21/choose-your-own-adventure/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2005/09/21/choose-your-own-adventure/</link>
	<description>Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects</description>
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		<title>By: scoopstories</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2005/09/21/choose-your-own-adventure/comment-page-1/#comment-734</link>
		<dc:creator>scoopstories</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Sep 2005 22:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=103#comment-734</guid>
		<description>I have to disagree with you on this one, Timothy.

And I say that as someone who has done his share of trend pieces for newspapers. The rule at our newspaper was if we hear of three instances of something that constitutes enough of a trend to be worthy of a story.

So by that logic this story is truly reporting on a trend.

But as Jack Shafer has aptly pointed out - as have others - the story is full of what he calls weasel words and what I call wishy washy words, particularly all the uses of  &quot;many&quot; to replace the absence of numbers.

It&#039;s possible to both write about a purported trend and to provide some real numbers too.



-------------------
RCin Prov mentions the class series.

The Times class series did a good job of doing both - writing about trends and patterrns but also providing numbers.

I expect better from the Times.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to disagree with you on this one, Timothy.</p>
<p>And I say that as someone who has done his share of trend pieces for newspapers. The rule at our newspaper was if we hear of three instances of something that constitutes enough of a trend to be worthy of a story.</p>
<p>So by that logic this story is truly reporting on a trend.</p>
<p>But as Jack Shafer has aptly pointed out &#8211; as have others &#8211; the story is full of what he calls weasel words and what I call wishy washy words, particularly all the uses of  &#8220;many&#8221; to replace the absence of numbers.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s possible to both write about a purported trend and to provide some real numbers too.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-<br />
RCin Prov mentions the class series.</p>
<p>The Times class series did a good job of doing both &#8211; writing about trends and patterrns but also providing numbers.</p>
<p>I expect better from the Times.</p>
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		<title>By: RCinProv</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2005/09/21/choose-your-own-adventure/comment-page-1/#comment-730</link>
		<dc:creator>RCinProv</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 23:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=103#comment-730</guid>
		<description>Fair enough.  I suppose there are better and worse romance novels; then again, from the one person I know who wrote one, there is actually a very rigid formula. The formula for the NYT Mag seems to be: find three people (often friends of the author)  and call it a trend. So I&#039;m all in favor of leaving most of these articles behind and then talking about the issue at large. The Times did fairly well with that class series, though, don&#039;t you think? Although I could have done without all the details from Nantucket.  And they must have poured a lot of resources into the effort.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough.  I suppose there are better and worse romance novels; then again, from the one person I know who wrote one, there is actually a very rigid formula. The formula for the NYT Mag seems to be: find three people (often friends of the author)  and call it a trend. So I&#8217;m all in favor of leaving most of these articles behind and then talking about the issue at large. The Times did fairly well with that class series, though, don&#8217;t you think? Although I could have done without all the details from Nantucket.  And they must have poured a lot of resources into the effort.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Burke</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2005/09/21/choose-your-own-adventure/comment-page-1/#comment-728</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Burke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 23:09:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=103#comment-728</guid>
		<description>No, it&#039;s not unworthy. I just think though that lifestyle journalism is what it is, on some level. A genre like romance novels or what have you. I lose patience with it when it mutates into high-toned David Brookish sociobabble, so admittedly my ability to walk away is also limited. Anyway, I expressed myself poorly on this point vis-a-vis this article: I think you can criticize it as making sociological claims well beyond the extremely bad and thin evidence it has to offer. I just think that once we observe that, the discussion is finished on a note of general consensus: it sucks and that&#039;s that. If we want to talk about anything more (marriage, choice, class privilege) we almost necessarily have to leave the article behind pretty quickly.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, it&#8217;s not unworthy. I just think though that lifestyle journalism is what it is, on some level. A genre like romance novels or what have you. I lose patience with it when it mutates into high-toned David Brookish sociobabble, so admittedly my ability to walk away is also limited. Anyway, I expressed myself poorly on this point vis-a-vis this article: I think you can criticize it as making sociological claims well beyond the extremely bad and thin evidence it has to offer. I just think that once we observe that, the discussion is finished on a note of general consensus: it sucks and that&#8217;s that. If we want to talk about anything more (marriage, choice, class privilege) we almost necessarily have to leave the article behind pretty quickly.</p>
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		<title>By: RCinProv</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2005/09/21/choose-your-own-adventure/comment-page-1/#comment-727</link>
		<dc:creator>RCinProv</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 23:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=103#comment-727</guid>
		<description>Let me get this straight: those (like me) who have criticized the kind of &quot;lifestyle journalism&quot; that is based on a few examples have made a point so unworthy of discussion that one can only sniff and walk away? Seems like your response is in the same category. 

Are there no distinctions within this type of journalism? Is there nothing between three examples and major sociological data? Seems to me that such articles sometimes actually have evidence beyond the few &quot;cases&quot; -- something to support the claim that three examples constitutes a &quot;trend.&quot; I would rather try to hold bloggers and journalists to a higher standard than accept that any example can support a lifestyle article. This expectation does not require a major study for any observation about lifestyles; rather, it expects a real attempt to think beyond specific cases to put them in some larger context. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me get this straight: those (like me) who have criticized the kind of &#8220;lifestyle journalism&#8221; that is based on a few examples have made a point so unworthy of discussion that one can only sniff and walk away? Seems like your response is in the same category. </p>
<p>Are there no distinctions within this type of journalism? Is there nothing between three examples and major sociological data? Seems to me that such articles sometimes actually have evidence beyond the few &#8220;cases&#8221; &#8212; something to support the claim that three examples constitutes a &#8220;trend.&#8221; I would rather try to hold bloggers and journalists to a higher standard than accept that any example can support a lifestyle article. This expectation does not require a major study for any observation about lifestyles; rather, it expects a real attempt to think beyond specific cases to put them in some larger context.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Burke</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2005/09/21/choose-your-own-adventure/comment-page-1/#comment-725</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Burke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:24:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=103#comment-725</guid>
		<description>Joeo&#039;s point is sort of what I had in mind when I mentioned the finishing-school ideology. Historians who write about the evolution of the &quot;companionate marriage&quot; following the development of ideologies of romantic love from the mid-19th to 20th Centuries have observed how on one hand this put a premium on the idea that a marriage-partner should have an individuality which is compatible or collaborative with one&#039;s own, but also an idea that the income-generating capacity of a partner no longer lay with that person&#039;s kin or inheritance but with their individual ability to make money or to properly reproduce the kinds of middle-class manners and culture necessary for making money. 

So from this relatively detached perspective, one could easily observe that getting an elite education even if one simply plans to marry and raise children is a wise economic strategy, that professional class men largely seek professional class partners (whether they&#039;re homosexual or heterosexual, in fact) and vice-versa for professional working women. That your class-reproducing &quot;marriagability&quot; is just as much a product of your education as your class-reproducing &quot;employability&quot;. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joeo&#8217;s point is sort of what I had in mind when I mentioned the finishing-school ideology. Historians who write about the evolution of the &#8220;companionate marriage&#8221; following the development of ideologies of romantic love from the mid-19th to 20th Centuries have observed how on one hand this put a premium on the idea that a marriage-partner should have an individuality which is compatible or collaborative with one&#8217;s own, but also an idea that the income-generating capacity of a partner no longer lay with that person&#8217;s kin or inheritance but with their individual ability to make money or to properly reproduce the kinds of middle-class manners and culture necessary for making money. </p>
<p>So from this relatively detached perspective, one could easily observe that getting an elite education even if one simply plans to marry and raise children is a wise economic strategy, that professional class men largely seek professional class partners (whether they&#8217;re homosexual or heterosexual, in fact) and vice-versa for professional working women. That your class-reproducing &#8220;marriagability&#8221; is just as much a product of your education as your class-reproducing &#8220;employability&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: joeo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2005/09/21/choose-your-own-adventure/comment-page-1/#comment-724</link>
		<dc:creator>joeo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:12:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=103#comment-724</guid>
		<description>I did notice that some of the students said they were going to law school.  The biggest law firms hire the best students then make 10% of them partner. Planning on working for x years then staying at home with the kids isn&#039;t an unrealistic plan; it is certainly more realistic than counting on making partner.  The difficulty becomes getting back into the legal field after the time taking care of the kids. 

I also often think about what Malcolm Gladwell said about the kids he taught at an elite college:

&gt;He once taught a course for a bunch of Princeton freshmen. He asked them to look around at each other and see if they noticed anything they had in common. They didn’t. “You’re all most attractive group of kids I’ve ever seen!” he exclaimed. “Don’t you think that has anything to do with why you’re here?” Oh no, of course not, they reply. (Gladwell doesn’t go into this, but this one could run pretty deep. It’s not just admissions officers picking cute kids, it’s professors and students and people who run clubs and things in high school too.)

These women are not going to have that hard a time getting upper middle class husbands. 

I would like to know why the kids in the elite colleges are so attractive.  My bet is subconscious discrimination, but some weird genetic cross-correlation between intellegence and attractiveness is possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did notice that some of the students said they were going to law school.  The biggest law firms hire the best students then make 10% of them partner. Planning on working for x years then staying at home with the kids isn&#8217;t an unrealistic plan; it is certainly more realistic than counting on making partner.  The difficulty becomes getting back into the legal field after the time taking care of the kids. </p>
<p>I also often think about what Malcolm Gladwell said about the kids he taught at an elite college:</p>
<p>&gt;He once taught a course for a bunch of Princeton freshmen. He asked them to look around at each other and see if they noticed anything they had in common. They didn’t. “You’re all most attractive group of kids I’ve ever seen!” he exclaimed. “Don’t you think that has anything to do with why you’re here?” Oh no, of course not, they reply. (Gladwell doesn’t go into this, but this one could run pretty deep. It’s not just admissions officers picking cute kids, it’s professors and students and people who run clubs and things in high school too.)</p>
<p>These women are not going to have that hard a time getting upper middle class husbands. </p>
<p>I would like to know why the kids in the elite colleges are so attractive.  My bet is subconscious discrimination, but some weird genetic cross-correlation between intellegence and attractiveness is possible.</p>
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		<title>By: mrscoulter</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2005/09/21/choose-your-own-adventure/comment-page-1/#comment-723</link>
		<dc:creator>mrscoulter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:07:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=103#comment-723</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If anything, I think the general critique we should have here is not the critique of choice and privilege, but the critique of the idolatry of productivity in white-collar careers, the notion that allowing people time to balance life and work in cycles related to child-rearing somehow makes them less valuable or productive in an overall sense to an employer. &lt;/i&gt;

Here, here. Nicely said, Tim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>If anything, I think the general critique we should have here is not the critique of choice and privilege, but the critique of the idolatry of productivity in white-collar careers, the notion that allowing people time to balance life and work in cycles related to child-rearing somehow makes them less valuable or productive in an overall sense to an employer. </i></p>
<p>Here, here. Nicely said, Tim.</p>
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		<title>By: Eleanor</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2005/09/21/choose-your-own-adventure/comment-page-1/#comment-722</link>
		<dc:creator>Eleanor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:10:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=103#comment-722</guid>
		<description>Some of the big consulting and financial firms have provision for employees to take sabbatical years after a certain period of service: paid leave to go travelling, do volunteer work in the third world, and so forth. OK, it&#039;s only the corporations with money to burn, and their motivation probably has a lot more to do with making sure that itchy-footed staff return to the fold rather than taking all your human-resource investment off to a rival company, but it&#039;s at least an example of a willingness to see the gaining of extra-curricular experience as a payoff to the organisation for working time lost.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some of the big consulting and financial firms have provision for employees to take sabbatical years after a certain period of service: paid leave to go travelling, do volunteer work in the third world, and so forth. OK, it&#8217;s only the corporations with money to burn, and their motivation probably has a lot more to do with making sure that itchy-footed staff return to the fold rather than taking all your human-resource investment off to a rival company, but it&#8217;s at least an example of a willingness to see the gaining of extra-curricular experience as a payoff to the organisation for working time lost.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Burke</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2005/09/21/choose-your-own-adventure/comment-page-1/#comment-721</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Burke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:28:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=103#comment-721</guid>
		<description>Right. 

If anything, I think the general critique we should have here is not the critique of choice and privilege, but the critique of the idolatry of productivity in white-collar careers, the notion that allowing people time to balance life and work in cycles related to child-rearing somehow makes them less valuable or productive in an overall sense to an employer. There&#039;s an incredibly short-porch sense of value involved here. Look at the last ten years of top corporate executives getting caught in misconduct: wouldn&#039;t you have rather had men and women in those positions who had a wider, richer connection to their families and communities, the kind of thing that only comes when you live at least a little outside the bubble of work? Making work a total culture isn&#039;t even good for the interests of a company or institution, let alone the wider interests of society. 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right. </p>
<p>If anything, I think the general critique we should have here is not the critique of choice and privilege, but the critique of the idolatry of productivity in white-collar careers, the notion that allowing people time to balance life and work in cycles related to child-rearing somehow makes them less valuable or productive in an overall sense to an employer. There&#8217;s an incredibly short-porch sense of value involved here. Look at the last ten years of top corporate executives getting caught in misconduct: wouldn&#8217;t you have rather had men and women in those positions who had a wider, richer connection to their families and communities, the kind of thing that only comes when you live at least a little outside the bubble of work? Making work a total culture isn&#8217;t even good for the interests of a company or institution, let alone the wider interests of society.</p>
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		<title>By: Eleanor</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2005/09/21/choose-your-own-adventure/comment-page-1/#comment-720</link>
		<dc:creator>Eleanor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:18:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=103#comment-720</guid>
		<description>Heartily agree with your last main paragraph. One of the reasons we work is to be able to afford to do other things with our fleeting and precious time, of which childrearing might or might not be one. 

The lines from the original article which really got up my nose were these: &quot;...will she join the long tradition of famous Ivy League graduates? Not likely. By the time she is 30, this accomplished 19-year-old expects to be a stay-at-home mom.&quot;

&quot;Not likely.&quot; So the intervening decade before she plans to reproduce, and any years when she returns to work after having kids, will likely count for nothing and she&#039;ll accomplish nothing worth noting? That&#039;s the same assumption as is made by any employer who thinks it&#039;s not worth hiring a woman because she&#039;ll only go off and have kids at some time in the future, thus she can&#039;t possibly achieve anything now. She wants children, therefore she&#039;s not serious,  she&#039;s not committed, she&#039;s not &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; in the world of work because it&#039;s not her sole and overriding interest in life. That&#039;s internalising the &quot;can&#039;t have it all&quot; idea as if one&#039;s only choice were to have either 100% of one thing or 100% of the other, as if the idea of having a percentage of each (in a ratio, moreover, that can change over time) could never be an option.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heartily agree with your last main paragraph. One of the reasons we work is to be able to afford to do other things with our fleeting and precious time, of which childrearing might or might not be one. </p>
<p>The lines from the original article which really got up my nose were these: &#8220;&#8230;will she join the long tradition of famous Ivy League graduates? Not likely. By the time she is 30, this accomplished 19-year-old expects to be a stay-at-home mom.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Not likely.&#8221; So the intervening decade before she plans to reproduce, and any years when she returns to work after having kids, will likely count for nothing and she&#8217;ll accomplish nothing worth noting? That&#8217;s the same assumption as is made by any employer who thinks it&#8217;s not worth hiring a woman because she&#8217;ll only go off and have kids at some time in the future, thus she can&#8217;t possibly achieve anything now. She wants children, therefore she&#8217;s not serious,  she&#8217;s not committed, she&#8217;s not <i>really</i> in the world of work because it&#8217;s not her sole and overriding interest in life. That&#8217;s internalising the &#8220;can&#8217;t have it all&#8221; idea as if one&#8217;s only choice were to have either 100% of one thing or 100% of the other, as if the idea of having a percentage of each (in a ratio, moreover, that can change over time) could never be an option.</p>
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