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	<title>Comments on: That Which Is Discussable</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2007/10/03/that-which-is-discussable/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2007/10/03/that-which-is-discussable/</link>
	<description>Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects</description>
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		<title>By: Dance</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2007/10/03/that-which-is-discussable/comment-page-1/#comment-4399</link>
		<dc:creator>Dance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=437#comment-4399</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Tim, very helpful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Tim, very helpful.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Burke</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2007/10/03/that-which-is-discussable/comment-page-1/#comment-4397</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Burke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 18:09:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=437#comment-4397</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I can see that. Though sometimes one of my shortcomings is that I do this &quot;Can you read my mind?&quot; sort of question, a kind of Mad Libs approach to discussion where I&#039;m asking students to fill in the blanks. I always kick myself silently when I catch myself doing it.

Dance, what I think of as call-and-response is something I start doing in topical classes that are above 22 or so students. If the class is smaller, I come in with a less specific agenda of what I want to talk about in the discussion, because I feel we can be more exploratory. There&#039;s more of a chance to find out how each student has read and thought about the material, and have some back-and-forth conversation about it. Once I cross the low 20s, trying to do that means that there&#039;s going to be two classes, in effect: the class of students who are involved in discussion and a second class of students who end up having to listen, just because of the constraints of size. 

So in call-and-response, I&#039;ve got a more tightly prepared or constrained agenda of things I want to do with the reading and I do a good deal more improvised mini-lecturing in between. So, for example, when we read two pieces that had a fairly Foucauldian take on environmental studies, I started off with a mini-lecture on Foucault. I think it&#039;s a slightly less satisfying way to go than the more open-ended kind of discussion, but I&#039;ve learned the hard way that a class which is too large for open-ended discussion needs to be organized a bit differently. 

In a smaller class, I may &quot;take the reins&quot; from time to time, but I&#039;m also content to let things go to places I hadn&#039;t planned. The one thing I do try to do is interpret most of the student comments, to put them in perspective for everyone, to seize on the part of the comment that is generative of some larger insight or a window into debate. 
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I can see that. Though sometimes one of my shortcomings is that I do this &#8220;Can you read my mind?&#8221; sort of question, a kind of Mad Libs approach to discussion where I&#8217;m asking students to fill in the blanks. I always kick myself silently when I catch myself doing it.</p>
<p>Dance, what I think of as call-and-response is something I start doing in topical classes that are above 22 or so students. If the class is smaller, I come in with a less specific agenda of what I want to talk about in the discussion, because I feel we can be more exploratory. There&#8217;s more of a chance to find out how each student has read and thought about the material, and have some back-and-forth conversation about it. Once I cross the low 20s, trying to do that means that there&#8217;s going to be two classes, in effect: the class of students who are involved in discussion and a second class of students who end up having to listen, just because of the constraints of size. </p>
<p>So in call-and-response, I&#8217;ve got a more tightly prepared or constrained agenda of things I want to do with the reading and I do a good deal more improvised mini-lecturing in between. So, for example, when we read two pieces that had a fairly Foucauldian take on environmental studies, I started off with a mini-lecture on Foucault. I think it&#8217;s a slightly less satisfying way to go than the more open-ended kind of discussion, but I&#8217;ve learned the hard way that a class which is too large for open-ended discussion needs to be organized a bit differently. </p>
<p>In a smaller class, I may &#8220;take the reins&#8221; from time to time, but I&#8217;m also content to let things go to places I hadn&#8217;t planned. The one thing I do try to do is interpret most of the student comments, to put them in perspective for everyone, to seize on the part of the comment that is generative of some larger insight or a window into debate.</p>
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		<title>By: heronhouse</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2007/10/03/that-which-is-discussable/comment-page-1/#comment-4396</link>
		<dc:creator>heronhouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 12:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=437#comment-4396</guid>
		<description>FWIW, those were some of my favorite readings of the semester, though that might have been because they weren&#039;t long enough for my mind to start wandering.

I agree with your comments on the differing levels of participation required for large/small classes.  One thing I&#039;ve noticed in this class, and throughout my time in college, is that, in discussions, students will often fail to bring up things they feel are &quot;obvious&quot;, even if that&#039;s all the professor is looking for.  There&#039;s a bit of a stigma attached to pointint out obvious things, and &quot;Master of the Obvious&quot; is a classic &quot;annoying classmate&quot; persona.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, those were some of my favorite readings of the semester, though that might have been because they weren&#8217;t long enough for my mind to start wandering.</p>
<p>I agree with your comments on the differing levels of participation required for large/small classes.  One thing I&#8217;ve noticed in this class, and throughout my time in college, is that, in discussions, students will often fail to bring up things they feel are &#8220;obvious&#8221;, even if that&#8217;s all the professor is looking for.  There&#8217;s a bit of a stigma attached to pointint out obvious things, and &#8220;Master of the Obvious&#8221; is a classic &#8220;annoying classmate&#8221; persona.</p>
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		<title>By: Dance</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2007/10/03/that-which-is-discussable/comment-page-1/#comment-4395</link>
		<dc:creator>Dance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 12:46:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=437#comment-4395</guid>
		<description>I think I hold encounter sessions. This piece seems to be aimed at students preparing for reading, but I&#039;m not totally following how the call and response works from the professor&#039;s side. Can you expand?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I hold encounter sessions. This piece seems to be aimed at students preparing for reading, but I&#8217;m not totally following how the call and response works from the professor&#8217;s side. Can you expand?</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2007/10/03/that-which-is-discussable/comment-page-1/#comment-4394</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 11:48:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=437#comment-4394</guid>
		<description>Ack, &quot;really&quot; twice in two sentences. Time for me to go to lunch, as my internal copyeditor is obviously already gone. Please consider both instances of &quot;really&quot; stricken from the comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ack, &#8220;really&#8221; twice in two sentences. Time for me to go to lunch, as my internal copyeditor is obviously already gone. Please consider both instances of &#8220;really&#8221; stricken from the comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2007/10/03/that-which-is-discussable/comment-page-1/#comment-4393</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 11:31:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=437#comment-4393</guid>
		<description>Actually, &quot;Where is Germany?&quot; is really an interesting question. &quot;In the middle of Europe&quot; is one answer, but that really depends on where Europe&#039;s eastern border is, which is also a very interesting question. (Taking the Urals as the eastern border puts the geographic center somewhere in Lithuania, I think.)

Standing in, say Elsäss, South Tyrolia, Austria, East Prussia or Schleswig-Holstein and asking, &quot;Am I in Germany?&quot; is an interesting question. Anyway, I&#039;m sure you get the point, and far be it from me to encourage finer-grained examination at this particular blog (see choir, preaching to), but even your example of a clearly dumb question has answers that reveal interesting things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, &#8220;Where is Germany?&#8221; is really an interesting question. &#8220;In the middle of Europe&#8221; is one answer, but that really depends on where Europe&#8217;s eastern border is, which is also a very interesting question. (Taking the Urals as the eastern border puts the geographic center somewhere in Lithuania, I think.)</p>
<p>Standing in, say Elsäss, South Tyrolia, Austria, East Prussia or Schleswig-Holstein and asking, &#8220;Am I in Germany?&#8221; is an interesting question. Anyway, I&#8217;m sure you get the point, and far be it from me to encourage finer-grained examination at this particular blog (see choir, preaching to), but even your example of a clearly dumb question has answers that reveal interesting things.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Burke</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2007/10/03/that-which-is-discussable/comment-page-1/#comment-4392</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Burke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=437#comment-4392</guid>
		<description>Agreed about persuasion, dr. What I mean by that is maybe closer to what you have in mind by engagement. I spend some time in class and in paper comments discouraging the op-ed form of persuasion in analytic writing. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed about persuasion, dr. What I mean by that is maybe closer to what you have in mind by engagement. I spend some time in class and in paper comments discouraging the op-ed form of persuasion in analytic writing.</p>
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		<title>By: dr</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2007/10/03/that-which-is-discussable/comment-page-1/#comment-4391</link>
		<dc:creator>dr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 23:27:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=437#comment-4391</guid>
		<description>Hmm.  I teach a lot of first-year students, who I think tend to gravitate towards 6 first and foremost, and I&#039;ve found that fostering that gives me the lever I need to move into 3-5.  

I&#039;m always concerned, though, when I hear people emphasizing the role of persuasion in academic and analytic writing.  You&#039;re certainly right -- it&#039;s there in many ways -- but that can lead us (and students) to think of academic arguments as being somehow akin to Op/Ed pieces, which are actually much less nuanced than the kind of writing I think we want college students to produce.  Similarly, it seems to me that the most far-reaching of the types of discussable questions you identify are less about persuasion than they are about engagement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm.  I teach a lot of first-year students, who I think tend to gravitate towards 6 first and foremost, and I&#8217;ve found that fostering that gives me the lever I need to move into 3-5.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m always concerned, though, when I hear people emphasizing the role of persuasion in academic and analytic writing.  You&#8217;re certainly right &#8212; it&#8217;s there in many ways &#8212; but that can lead us (and students) to think of academic arguments as being somehow akin to Op/Ed pieces, which are actually much less nuanced than the kind of writing I think we want college students to produce.  Similarly, it seems to me that the most far-reaching of the types of discussable questions you identify are less about persuasion than they are about engagement.</p>
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		<title>By: Western Dave</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2007/10/03/that-which-is-discussable/comment-page-1/#comment-4390</link>
		<dc:creator>Western Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:45:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=437#comment-4390</guid>
		<description>And the thing is, students need to do this early and often to get the hang of it.  At my independent school we spend a lot of time on 2,3,4, and 6.   For many students, 6 is the hardest part, yet the most rewarding. We get at it by having kids make a line down the page and summarize an argument on the one side and do commentary about what catches them off guard on the other.  Books that go against received knowledge work well here.  We use The World that Trade Created for this exercise.   But they have to give themselves permission to be interested in the stuff.  2 we explore by asking &quot;How do we know this.&quot;  3 is part of the way we teach annotation.  Students are told explicitly to look for material that connects to something earlier even (and especially) when the text does not make that connection.  4 we get at by having students mark up readings with Es for evidence and As for argument.  What&#039;s evidence?  What&#039;s argument?  Is this the only possible interpretation for this argument? 5 our students tend to have an easy time with although it is not something we explicitly teac.  They frequently ask which theme a particular topic relates to and other students can usually answer.  It helps that the key themes are addressed on the first day of class and that by the time they hit Upper School they know how to keep a binder properly (a skill I wish I had in grad school much less high school).  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the thing is, students need to do this early and often to get the hang of it.  At my independent school we spend a lot of time on 2,3,4, and 6.   For many students, 6 is the hardest part, yet the most rewarding. We get at it by having kids make a line down the page and summarize an argument on the one side and do commentary about what catches them off guard on the other.  Books that go against received knowledge work well here.  We use The World that Trade Created for this exercise.   But they have to give themselves permission to be interested in the stuff.  2 we explore by asking &#8220;How do we know this.&#8221;  3 is part of the way we teach annotation.  Students are told explicitly to look for material that connects to something earlier even (and especially) when the text does not make that connection.  4 we get at by having students mark up readings with Es for evidence and As for argument.  What&#8217;s evidence?  What&#8217;s argument?  Is this the only possible interpretation for this argument? 5 our students tend to have an easy time with although it is not something we explicitly teac.  They frequently ask which theme a particular topic relates to and other students can usually answer.  It helps that the key themes are addressed on the first day of class and that by the time they hit Upper School they know how to keep a binder properly (a skill I wish I had in grad school much less high school).</p>
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		<title>By: jpool</title>
		<link>http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2007/10/03/that-which-is-discussable/comment-page-1/#comment-4389</link>
		<dc:creator>jpool</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 17:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=437#comment-4389</guid>
		<description>Thanks also for your response to Medved.  His infuriating, if by now somewhat boiler plate, essay might be useful for having students try to critique/deconstruct.  But then I&#039;ll get accused of indoctrination.  Sigh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks also for your response to Medved.  His infuriating, if by now somewhat boiler plate, essay might be useful for having students try to critique/deconstruct.  But then I&#8217;ll get accused of indoctrination.  Sigh.</p>
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