Comments on: Eeyore and the Unintended Consequence http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2009/08/24/eeyore-and-the-unintended-consequence/ Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:26:04 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1 By: G. Weaire http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2009/08/24/eeyore-and-the-unintended-consequence/comment-page-1/#comment-6800 G. Weaire Wed, 26 Aug 2009 20:33:01 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=973#comment-6800 Oh, I'm not doubting that your knowledge is substantial. Just advancing the notion that pulling the trigger here suggests that you could be more trigger-happy in other situations. I'm perhaps oversensitized to this because of my background. But one can also be undersensitized to the risk that popular historical narratives pose once they become the basis of claims about politics. On the narrative point: I'm actually more sceptical about that particular narrative. Less in broad outline, than in the particular statements about the premodern world that it generates, or at least the bit of it that I know fairly well. I'm always being brought up short by statements in such contexts about classical antiquity that range from "basically OK but lacking important qualifiers" through "misleadingly oversimplified" to "where on earth is this person getting this idea?" Oh, I’m not doubting that your knowledge is substantial. Just advancing the notion that pulling the trigger here suggests that you could be more trigger-happy in other situations. I’m perhaps oversensitized to this because of my background. But one can also be undersensitized to the risk that popular historical narratives pose once they become the basis of claims about politics.

On the narrative point: I’m actually more sceptical about that particular narrative. Less in broad outline, than in the particular statements about the premodern world that it generates, or at least the bit of it that I know fairly well. I’m always being brought up short by statements in such contexts about classical antiquity that range from “basically OK but lacking important qualifiers” through “misleadingly oversimplified” to “where on earth is this person getting this idea?”

]]> By: Timothy Burke http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2009/08/24/eeyore-and-the-unintended-consequence/comment-page-1/#comment-6797 Timothy Burke Wed, 26 Aug 2009 19:11:38 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=973#comment-6797 Let's say that I think my historical knowledge of the state as an institution is, if not total, substantial. I don't see any basis in what I know for an argument that the state, unlike other modern institutions, always produces negative or bad unintended consequences from its actions. I agree that there's a narrative (several, in fact) that can explain the disembedding of a liberal, capitalist, market-driven world out of a mercantilist or premodern one. But insofar as such a narrative argues that that emergence is immaculately free of the taint of the state, that the state played no positive role (intentionally or unintentionally) in that emergence, it's simply incorrect. Let’s say that I think my historical knowledge of the state as an institution is, if not total, substantial. I don’t see any basis in what I know for an argument that the state, unlike other modern institutions, always produces negative or bad unintended consequences from its actions.

I agree that there’s a narrative (several, in fact) that can explain the disembedding of a liberal, capitalist, market-driven world out of a mercantilist or premodern one. But insofar as such a narrative argues that that emergence is immaculately free of the taint of the state, that the state played no positive role (intentionally or unintentionally) in that emergence, it’s simply incorrect.

]]> By: G. Weaire http://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/2009/08/24/eeyore-and-the-unintended-consequence/comment-page-1/#comment-6795 G. Weaire Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:53:45 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=973#comment-6795 Well, but you don't have a truly comprehensive history of the consequences of state action, either. Neither do I, nor does anyone else. Obviously, it may be fair to say that McArdle's history is an inadequate one, but that calls for some discussion of what would make it adequate. A cliche, but sometimes a cliche is a cliche because it's true. The reason I bring this particular cliche up is that you've written in the past (the Philadelphia tour guides post) against academic historians using their understanding of history as a basis for criticism of popular understandings of history. One thing that made me uncomfortable about that was that it seemed to underrate the extent to which popular understandings of history underpin calls for action (or inaction) in the real world. (I'm fairly sure that McArdle does have a narrative that would answer the polity vs. market dilemma to her satisfaction. Or if she doesn't personally, it's certainly out there among people of her political bent - a heroic Whig narrative of dynamic, creative market modernity liberating itself from a static premodern world of hierarchy and embedded economies.) Well, but you don’t have a truly comprehensive history of the consequences of state action, either. Neither do I, nor does anyone else. Obviously, it may be fair to say that McArdle’s history is an inadequate one, but that calls for some discussion of what would make it adequate. A cliche, but sometimes a cliche is a cliche because it’s true.

The reason I bring this particular cliche up is that you’ve written in the past (the Philadelphia tour guides post) against academic historians using their understanding of history as a basis for criticism of popular understandings of history. One thing that made me uncomfortable about that was that it seemed to underrate the extent to which popular understandings of history underpin calls for action (or inaction) in the real world.

(I’m fairly sure that McArdle does have a narrative that would answer the polity vs. market dilemma to her satisfaction. Or if she doesn’t personally, it’s certainly out there among people of her political bent – a heroic Whig narrative of dynamic, creative market modernity liberating itself from a static premodern world of hierarchy and embedded economies.)

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